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donsutherland1
09-07-2004, 01:52 PM
Based on an examination of six past sub-920 mb hurricanes for which a large amount of pressure data is available, the odds of Ivan's growing into a sub-920 mb hurricane are low but not zero.

The hurricanes assessed were:

Allen (1980): 899 mb
Gilbert (1988): 888 mb
Hugo (1989): 918 mb
Isabel (2003): 915 mb
Mitch (1998): 906 mb
Opal (1995): 916 mb

All of these hurricanes met the following criteria:

• Had an explosive deepening phase (drop of 26 mb or more over a period of 24 hours or less)
• Saw no increase of more than 5 mb in pressure prior to first dropping below 920 mb after or during the explosive deepening phase

A look at "near-misses" or hurricanes that achieved 920 mb to 925 mb minimum pressures also reveals that such storms typically meet the above criteria for sub-920 mb storms. Only one such "near-miss" hurricane had experienced a pressure increase that exceeded the above criteria.

Those storms examined were:

Andrew (1992): 922 mb
David (1979): 924 mb
Floyd (1999): 921 mb
Gloria (1985): 920 mb

David saw a brief 6 mb rise but only after interaction with the Antilles before resuming its drop to 924 mb.

Thus, if one looks for a sub-925 mb storm, one likely needs to look for the following:

• An explosive deepening phase (drop of 26 mb or more over a period of 24 hours or less)
• No increase of 10 or more mb in pressure prior to first dropping to or below 925 mb after or during the explosive deepening phase

Ivan saw its central pressure increase 21 mb after its explosive deepening phase brought it to 948 mb (a drop of 39 mb in 15 hours). At the same time, this increase in pressure occurred without any interaction with land.

With its initial explosive intensification phase having failed to see a sustained drop in the pressure, against the above criteria, it would appear that Ivan would not become a sub-920 mb hurricane.

However, there may be some data that suggests that Ivan's prospects for strengthening below 920 mb might not been eliminated altogether:

Hurricane Allen saw its central pressure rocket 32 mb and then come back down explosively, but after Allen had initially achieved sub-920 mb status. What happened is that Allen saw two significant pressure increases due to interaction with land:

http://weather.unisys.com/hurricane/atlantic/1980/ALLEN/track.gif

Nevertheless, working against this idea, one could make the argument that Allen was in a sustained explosive deepening phase and it was only the interaction with the land and not the termination of the explosive deepening that led to its increases in pressure.

Another argument for possible strengthening beyond 920 mb would be the small sample size. Unfortunately, large amounts of pressure data are not available for addition sub-920 mb hurricanes such as Camille.

Based on the above information, I believe that the odds of Ivan's growing into a sub-920 mb hurricane are low but not necessarily zero.

It will be interesting to see how things ultimately work out.

ticka1
09-08-2004, 12:21 AM
Don - when you first posted this I said there was no way that Ivan would be a hurricane with a 920 mb? I am beginning to think I am wrong on this thinking. Here it is 2:00 a.m. and the newest update has him at 950 mb? There is nothing but warm water in front of him for the next 24 hours if he continues the forecasted track.

It would be an interesting sidenote to Ivan if he did achieve the sub-920 mb reading.

GuppieGrouper
09-08-2004, 02:24 AM
Hi, Ticka Just saw 946 mb. I think it was a correction to earlier report. Like your site. :crazy-eye

donsutherland1
09-08-2004, 07:44 AM
Ivan has encountered some shear and the pressure has gone up to 955 mb:

000
URNT12 KNHC 081110
VORTEX DATA MESSAGE
A. 08/1110Z
B. 12 DEG 29 MIN N
65 DEG 22 MIN W
C. 700 MB 2694 M
D. 080 KT
E. 247 DEG 19 NM
F. 343 DEG 95 KT
G. 241 DEG 009 NM
H. 955 MB
I. 8 C/ 3101 M
J. 17 C/ 3083 M
K. 12 C/ NA
L. CLOSED WALL
M. C20
N. 12345/7
O. 0.1/ 2 NM
P. AF977 0709A IVAN OB 25
MAX FL WIND 133 KT NE QUAD 0739Z.

ticka1
09-08-2004, 10:50 AM
11:00 a.m. advisory has 955 mb pressure. Will be interesting to see if he strengthns anymore or is he's reached his max.

Maybe he won't make the sub 920 mb presssure club.

ticka1
09-09-2004, 04:56 AM
921 mb Thursday morning.

StingRay
09-09-2004, 04:59 AM
Most recent dropsonde at 916....worse than Andrew and Hugo.....

ticka1
09-09-2004, 05:23 AM
Don - What are your thoughts on Ivan and where he is going and his future? Appreciate your insight.

Ticka1

donsutherland1
09-09-2004, 06:13 AM
Ticka,

Two quick things:

First, Ivan briefly reached an extrapolated pressure of 916 mb. Given the environment around him, he has reached such rarified pressure in spite of long historical odds (even if one considers the small sample size).

JB called for this to happen and he deserves a lot of credit for his call. I believe DT also noted this somewhere and he also deserves credit.

Second, I believe he will continue to track west-northwest to around 16.5N 75.0W and then be making a turn more to the north. A look at historical hurricanes that have followed similar tracks, passed through 65W south of 13N, and the synoptic setup suggests that this storm will more than likely move into the Gulf of Mexico.

Whether it will hit the west coast of Florida, the Florida Panhandle, or the central Gulf Coast remains to be seen.

ticka1
09-09-2004, 11:25 PM
Well for a short time he was at 920 mb - and now he's back up to 923 mb. Interesting forecast Don - will have to see what happens with Ivan and where he goes and where he will end up at.

Can't say the tropics haven't been slow this year can we? Now we are asking will it ever slow down???

Thanks for posting here Don. Please continue to update us.

Ticka1

donsutherland1
09-10-2004, 09:44 PM
Just a quick note, late Friday morning, Ivan tracked through 16.5N 75.0W (rounded to 16.5N as he passed just slightly south of there). He increasingly looks to move into the Gulf of Mexico. If he passes at or even west of 20.1N 80.0W, this should be further confirmation of his track to the GOM.